By Dave Opton, CEO and Founder of Execunet, AARP member, exclusive for WWDS.
Ed. Note: Oops, sorry, I forget what I was going to say here.
If you are anything like me, while you always knew there were laws against age discrimination on an intellectual level, it wasn’t until you got out there in the real world looking to make a change at say 45+ that you came to internalize emotionally age discrimination was more than a phrase you read about from time to time but actually came with raw nerve endings. To understate the case, not a great feeling.
Given the make-up of our membership (average age 49 and nearly 70% with advanced degrees) we get lots of feedback and war stories from people facing this issue and they often ask me what my feelings are on the subject.
Maybe it’s my own age kicking in (for all intents and purposes 70) or just that in combination with the life experiences that have gone along with it, but what I usually tell them is that it seems to me there is a spectrum – on one end are people whose minds you will never change and on the on the other are those whose minds you don’t have to worry about changing. The rest of us tend to fall somewhere in-between which means to one degree or another, while we all have a bias, we are influence able.
My own “awakening” in this particular arena came when I was 48 and was in the process of trying to figure out what my next gig was going to be having found myself “out” as the result of being part of the acquired company.
While all this took place a couple of recessions ago (i.e. ’88) I was getting interviews. Still, it took me more than 6 months before it started to dawn on me that my age was an issue. I was speechless (which for anyone who knows me takes a lot). I had just finished running in the NYC marathon for Pete’s sake! What in the hell was going on here?
So now it is some 21 years later, and I while I am no longer speechless, I’m still pretty ticked off, and the passing years have not reduced the number of ExecuNet members we talk to all the time who suddenly realize the reality of such phrases as “over qualified” or “not more than 10-12 years experience.” They are pretty ticked off too and certainly the current ‘sellers’ market doesn’t make it any easier to take.
Our stats here at ExecuNet clearly show two things:
1. Age discrimination is alive and well, and
2. While it usually takes longer, (the 35 year old ends up getting about twice as many interviews as the 50 year olds) it is not insurmountable.
Once one starts to manage the anger and realize that the skill and experience you have acquired over time is simply not available by googling, taking pills or injections. The fact is you have a USP that is really worth a great deal. What you bring to the party is maturity, experience, and judgment that has been gained out there in the market place where they shoot with live ammunition.
Said differently, you aren’t going to get past someone’s age bias if you approach your search with an attitude that telegraphs, “I know I’m older, probably overqualified and would really rather be retiring than reinventing myself.” What does convince (at nearly any age), is projecting energy, commitment and genuine interest to go along with the fact that you come armed with information that makes it clear to the organization that the aspirin for their headache is sitting across the desk. [And BTW, an up-to-date shirt, good grooming and glasses from this century don’t hurt either.]
Bottom line as they say: It depends on how you want to spend your time and energy.
The fact is that you need to go to work somewhere and if you elect to go the suit route, aside from the time and expense, the “real world” probability is that no employer is going to be real excited about bringing you on board for fear that they would be next on your list, and in this day and age, finding out that you are involved in a legal battle would not take long.
Not an easy choice for sure, and it doesn’t help with the deep anger that one feels, but maybe what reality dictates as the best choice for you and your family.
Would that it were a perfect world.
Are any of you experiencing this problem? Has anyone found a way around this? And, am I the only person in the world that thinks this is BS? I’d really like to know what your experience is.
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Dave, it ticks me off that our society in general doesn’t value those of more advanced experience. Overqualified shouldn’t even be in the lexicon! It should translate to “Here’s a person that can raise the level of our game! How can we compensate them by what we add to the business because they are here?”
Conrad, if you want to argue, you’ll have to change the subject. I couldn’t agree more although reality would tell us that we are a lot closer to “wishful thinking” than we are to removing this from our lexicon. On the other hand, that is no reason to stop trying.
Unfortunately, you’re right. Exponentially.
From a societal pov, with the market crash killing 401ks and “savings”, as well as the home value crash, “we” as a society have a big problem. “We” are raising the social security retirement age, and more importantly the Medicare age. And, “companies” are shooting anyone under 40 at their first opportunity. How many “consultants” can our economy support?
As you know, I’m advising turkeys that after 50, they will find it IMPOSSIBLE to get another salaried position. (Now that may be a SLIGHT exageration, but NOT MUCH!)
I’ve revised my “emergency fund required” formula. The age component multiplier goes from a one multiplier at ages below forty to a plus one multiplier for every five years of age OVER 40. (That is 40-45 is DOUBLE; 50-55 is quadruple; 60-65 is five times. SHOCKING? You should see the old farts, myself included, who I tell that they will never work again at a salaried job like the old days! Their stunned. Some have high school age or younger kids in second marriages. Are they surpprised!)
This reflects the reality that “jobs” are really hard to come by.
I tell anyone who will listen that: “Success for future generations is: (1) ruthless financial discipline — no bad debt; (2) a life long interest in learning — education — a degree — they can’t take it away from you; (3) a white collar job in order to save big bux; (4) a blue collar skill for hard times — never saw a poor plumber; (5) one or more internet based businesses — your store is always open; (6) a free time hobby that generates income; and (7) a large will-maintained network of people who can “help” you.” Funny how no one believes me?
ERISA changed the corporate behavior of discharging “old” aerospace engineers before their pensions would vest. SO to we will need such a “game changer” to allow us to “bridge” “old age” to retirement.
I suggest that old farts, or those soon to be old farts, like myself, INSIST on an employment contract before they jump to the next opportunity. Can’t get it; be advised! You’ll soon be screwed. We have to change from an “at will” employment culture to something else.
fjohn
the big fat old turkey hisself
My question is in reference to the other end of the spectrum. Do you believe that younger members of the workplace, and here I am specifically referencing members of Generation Y, are discriminated against? I happen to believe that the negative stigma that is carried with certain members of Gen Y, combined with the believe that experience trumps all, has a limiting effect on many of these individuals. I don’t mean to knock the idea of experience having a tremendous effect on businesses, but I think there has to be some merit given to the fact that the entering working class is the most technologically savvy in US history and is bring forth new ideas which are aimed at improving the current “status quo” in many industries which haven’t had innovation in decades.
I am no spring chicken but come from a different culture. Age discrimination is alive and kicking here too but, respect for age is also flourishing. Let me give you my personal example. I can walk into very lucrative jobs in 24 hours time if I only agree to move residence. This is because the prospective employers are children and in two cases, grand children of people with who I had done business with in my younger days. I am currently adviser to three enterprises, one of which enables me to run a small agency from home. A number of my collegues work post retirement in NGOs some on a salaried basis and some on volunteery basis. Some have found jobs at lower pay and status than what they held at retirement.
I suspect that there are two issues at play here. One is a high expectation on remuneration based on the last drawn pay cheque and two, and two, an unwillingness to opt for positions of lower status than the last one held.
Depending on the desperation of the need, finding post retirement employment is not difficult if one is willing to compromise on the above two factors.
I see resumes of candidates every day of job seekers that highlight their age. A candidate’s experience in the 10-20 years is most critical. Listing a job and dates for a position held more than 30 years ago is a mistake. It is unlikely the position will be relevant – you should have progressed beyond that position by now, technology has changed, and none us remember details from 30 years ago as well as recent experiences. With work experience, you can provide your last 15 or 20 years and then a statement “Prior experience in roles.” I see statements like this regularly.
If you are worried about age discrimination affecting, don’t highlight your age on your resume. Provide the information a hiring manager needs – the last 15-20 years. This may not prevent a hiring manager that is determined to discriminate from rejecting you, but will help you get an interview where you have the opportunity to sell through any biases.
Gary
To ReinKefl:
I pretty much agree with your list and would like to add one more. I know that ‘sales’ is not the be all and end all of jobs, but…
At least in a sales job, assuming you have learned real skills from a proven sales leader and not just some guy who read SPIN SELLING last night, you will have a lifetime job, even if it is commission only.
Other than that, your advice is spot on. These days, it takes little effort to create an internet biz, it might not bring in the big bucks, but it is better than watching Oprah re runs.
Sorry to have jumped in on Dave’s post…
Josh…again jumping in not in lieu of Dave responding but in addition.
You bring up a good point although, to keep it in perspective, I am thinking your issue is like the beauty queen who complains that people ‘Just’ like her because of her looks. Most hiring managers are not that superficial, one always needs to prove himself or herself…and age has little to do with it. The older the person, there may well be an exterior barrier to leap over but it is a relatively short one when compared to the answer to the key question: How can this person help me right now, right here, today.
Josh,
Not sure what others might think, but my opinion is that for sure this sort of thing can work in reverse but at least in my experience, it is certainly not as severe as it is on the other end. Indeed, in many cases, what the Gen Y candidate is feeling might not be discrimination per se but rather not wanting to accept the fact that the hiring organization feels they need someone with a bit more experience under their belt for the position in question.
As I was also trying to say is that there is no shortage of biases to go around. That being said, the challenge any of us face in trying to deal with them is first to recognize that this is a factor (because more often than not people are not going to be so stupid as to voice their bias). Once we know that this is a “concern” as we are trying to sell ourselves, we are going to have to do our best to come up with tactics to overcome the concern. If they fall somewhere between the two extremes there is a chance to change their minds and help them to see that their concerns aren’t warranted.
Dave
Dave
Mr Rummuser—-yes, you are exactly right. There needs to be a re-benchmarking of expectations on everyone’s part. I know a very successful retired man who is now a check out guy at Home Depot, a big hardware-type store here in USA. He loves that sort of stuff. His biggest issue has been learning how to keep a bit quiet; he has run operations much bigger than a single store, but has found that he has to temper his own desire to share information and ideas. It is too bad, but with age often comes the reality that no one thinks to ask for your opinions. Maybe he should start a blog then?
Good contribution here.
Gary–
This was good, clear practical advice for the older job seeker. I am curious, have you found the older job seeker is better at job searching? About at proving his value to the hiring manager? Are there some positive things you have seen from the older job seeker that may help everyone?
My bias is that they do a better job of networking, of selling themselves, of demonstrating how they can help RIGHT AWAY, and of even being more likeable.
Is that true or am I smoking something I shouldn’t?
Conrad, lastly, but I wanted to jump and add to Dave’s comment.
I think our society DOES value experience, generally, except in politics perhaps. The military, as much as I hated my own experience there mostly due to the seniority rules concept, does a great job of rewarding and sharing leadership experiences based on real world and practical results. When i was younger, and a bit more full of myself, I thought I could do as well in my Colonel’s job as he could. I probably could, with the day to day stuff. But you also must pay up for leadership and experience when troubled times hit, or stress, or a bad economy.
GL, good extension of my idea. I agree with you that experience is often valued, but must become more of a priority in troubled times. It’s a hard decision for companies to make, kind of a leap of faith in creating the future by taking advantage of experience with the past.
As always Dave hits the nail on the head in a way few could achieve. Age bias is a fact of life and many times it’s the elephant in the room. A young manager often feels intimidated when interviewing somebody she perceives as a Father figureand far too often many older job seekers do not capitalize on their experience as well as the wisdom and skills times bring. Its almost like PC censorship where they do not want to rock the boat or ruffle feathers. Sometimes that is just what is needed.
In the changing economy the experienced and proven worker can have a leg up in the hiring process if they would only take it. Like many things you have to believe in yourself before somebody else will.
Attaboy Dave!
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Yes, I’ve been running into age discrimination for the last 7 or 8 years. I was astounded at first, as I look 10 years younger that I actually am, and I was naive in thinking that people would see all my great experience and hire me right away. I’ve been told so many times “you’re over qualified” which is code for “your too old”, that I think my head will explode. I’ve worked temp assignments, but only those where the hiring manager has more experience and more degrees than me and is not threatened by me … younger hiring managers take a pass every time. My personal thoughts are that they are intimidated and think experienced older workers might take their job some day. I’ve also been told that hiring older workers will cost the company more money in healthcare, ’cause older workers will eventually start having health problems. Another perception is that older workers are “set in their ways” and less trainable. Very good people are being forced into early retirement at what I consider extremely young ages. 45 to 50 is NOT old!
In the city.of Philadelphia, not only did I experience age discrimination, but also racism. I am a white professional in my fifties, but I look 20 years younger. Interviewers uses devious, unethical and illegal, intrusive means to procure you age. There may be set anti-discrination laws, but NO ONE abides by them any more! Thusly the wave of lawsuits today. Companies are taking advantage of the recession to ”clean house”, and they are getting away with it AND HOW! I was laid off 2.5 years ago, and have only been able to find low-paying retail part-time jobs. Philadelphia is largely black population, and the NAACP has a strong foothold there. Companies shutter at the abbreviation, and cowtow to the black employees. There are two sets of standards everywhere in Philadelphia: one very high set for whites, and low or none for blacks. At a prominent hospital where I worked I was fired because I refused to,partake in the daily ritual of coffee catty gossip and contributing to the grapevine bs. The same month, a group of black employees who were caught stealing drugs from the hospital closets and selling them on the streets, merely got their hands slapped, and were only suspended for a week. Need I say more? At my recent job, I was passed over in favor of a black for a fulltime job in my dept, because they needed to fill their status quo of blacks in each dept throughout the store. I was evicted and have relocated due to age and racial discrimination. Perhaps it was a blessing in disguise. I dispise Philadelphia and all it represents!
Regarding the y-gen: While compulsively-obssessed and preoccupied with their own vanity, youth, sexuality, perpetual texting and blogging; it will be intetesting to see how they cope with the folly of their own making some day. Texting and blogging is not real communication. It is merely a distraction from reality and from dealing with real people in front of you, in a word, fruitless psychobabble. And why are the y-gens popping out babies like there’s no tomorrow?! Just because Angelina and Brad have an endless stream houseful of kids of many colors does not mean the entire y-gen has to. And tax $ pays supports all the families of those who indiscriminately keep giving birth to children that parents can’t afford. The y-gen copycats tv, Hollywood, movie stars, and are wannabe’s from OUR 70′s gen! They’re trying to recapture what we created: and yet they have thrown us “older people” away.