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	<title>Comments on: Have Job Boards Jumped the Shark and See How Nick Corcodilos Helps Gen X/Y By Exposing One of Their Advisors</title>
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		<title>By: BFMark</title>
		<link>http://whatwoulddadsay.com/2009/12/toby-dayton-heres-a-good-case-for-rethinking-your-thinking/#comment-119324</link>
		<dc:creator>BFMark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 07:42:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.jobdig.com/wwds/?p=4267#comment-119324</guid>
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		<title>By: Steven Rothberg CollegeRecruiter.com</title>
		<link>http://whatwoulddadsay.com/2009/12/toby-dayton-heres-a-good-case-for-rethinking-your-thinking/#comment-119294</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Rothberg CollegeRecruiter.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 02:42:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.jobdig.com/wwds/?p=4267#comment-119294</guid>
		<description>The study from Peter was based on the responses of thousands of job seekers who were surveyed about job boards, how they found their last job, how they expect to find their next job, etc. He uses the same survey to make the annual best job board awards. The job seekers were visitors to Weddles.com and therefore not an inherently biased group like you&#039;d expect to see at a job board or when Fox News surveys its viewers and -- surprise!! -- &quot;Americans overwhelmingly agree with Glenn Beck!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The study from Peter was based on the responses of thousands of job seekers who were surveyed about job boards, how they found their last job, how they expect to find their next job, etc. He uses the same survey to make the annual best job board awards. The job seekers were visitors to Weddles.com and therefore not an inherently biased group like you&#8217;d expect to see at a job board or when Fox News surveys its viewers and &#8212; surprise!! &#8212; &#8220;Americans overwhelmingly agree with Glenn Beck!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: eric shannon</title>
		<link>http://whatwoulddadsay.com/2009/12/toby-dayton-heres-a-good-case-for-rethinking-your-thinking/#comment-119293</link>
		<dc:creator>eric shannon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.jobdig.com/wwds/?p=4267#comment-119293</guid>
		<description>By the way, I didn&#039;t mean to imply that the studies cited by Steven and Nick are flawed based on monetary interests. There are any number of forms of bias and most are unintentional. Online recruiting is still the Wild West. The bottom line is that every employer has to figure out what works based on lots of individual and unique circumstances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, I didn&#8217;t mean to imply that the studies cited by Steven and Nick are flawed based on monetary interests. There are any number of forms of bias and most are unintentional. Online recruiting is still the Wild West. The bottom line is that every employer has to figure out what works based on lots of individual and unique circumstances.</p>
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		<title>By: eric shannon</title>
		<link>http://whatwoulddadsay.com/2009/12/toby-dayton-heres-a-good-case-for-rethinking-your-thinking/#comment-119292</link>
		<dc:creator>eric shannon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:15:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.jobdig.com/wwds/?p=4267#comment-119292</guid>
		<description>Lively debate, but none of the numbers being thrown around are unbiased or reliable regardless of methodology. They are all flawed. The FDA has a methodology too - does that mean approved medications are safe or are the results biased by mountains of pharmaceutical company cash? 

The best we can all do is run our own experiments and spend our resources accordingly. Anyone basing their recruiting spend on hearsay or secondhand numbers is gambling on poor odds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lively debate, but none of the numbers being thrown around are unbiased or reliable regardless of methodology. They are all flawed. The FDA has a methodology too &#8211; does that mean approved medications are safe or are the results biased by mountains of pharmaceutical company cash? </p>
<p>The best we can all do is run our own experiments and spend our resources accordingly. Anyone basing their recruiting spend on hearsay or secondhand numbers is gambling on poor odds.</p>
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		<title>By: Karen Swim</title>
		<link>http://whatwoulddadsay.com/2009/12/toby-dayton-heres-a-good-case-for-rethinking-your-thinking/#comment-119288</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen Swim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 15:48:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.jobdig.com/wwds/?p=4267#comment-119288</guid>
		<description>GL, I work with job seekers. My advice to them is use the job boards as one tool but not the only one. Do people ever find jobs through job boards? Of course they do, but in my own work with clients I have not found it to be the best or fastest strategy. Quite frankly, there is a place for job boards but the strategy and pricing is long overdue for a revamp. As many have mentioned, is it really a service to the client company, or job seeker to provide a cattle call process. I would rather receive fewer resumes of qualified candidates than sift through mountains of paper any day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GL, I work with job seekers. My advice to them is use the job boards as one tool but not the only one. Do people ever find jobs through job boards? Of course they do, but in my own work with clients I have not found it to be the best or fastest strategy. Quite frankly, there is a place for job boards but the strategy and pricing is long overdue for a revamp. As many have mentioned, is it really a service to the client company, or job seeker to provide a cattle call process. I would rather receive fewer resumes of qualified candidates than sift through mountains of paper any day.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Corcodilos</title>
		<link>http://whatwoulddadsay.com/2009/12/toby-dayton-heres-a-good-case-for-rethinking-your-thinking/#comment-119286</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Corcodilos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 03:27:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.jobdig.com/wwds/?p=4267#comment-119286</guid>
		<description>@Steve Rothberg: I didn&#039;t criticize you. I criticized Weddle. I challenged you. You cited the &quot;very good, reliable source,&quot; Steve. I&#039;m questioning your claim. I could have easily omitted the fact that I once tried to trace the source information you refer to. That&#039;s not the point. The point is that Weddle distributes that report but does not back it up, and you&#039;re using it to make a claim. I can&#039;t prove a negative. Did you call Weddle, since you cited him? Did you know the source of the data was Weddle to begin with? My challenge stands. You cited a report that you emphasized was credible. (The career industry is a bit too fond of basing product claims on &quot;they say that...&quot;) Show me the data and the methodology to back up your staggering claim that &quot;almost 70%&quot; of people find their jobs through job boards. I&#039;ve cited my sources, which disclose their data and their methodologies. All I&#039;m asking you to do is the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Steve Rothberg: I didn&#8217;t criticize you. I criticized Weddle. I challenged you. You cited the &#8220;very good, reliable source,&#8221; Steve. I&#8217;m questioning your claim. I could have easily omitted the fact that I once tried to trace the source information you refer to. That&#8217;s not the point. The point is that Weddle distributes that report but does not back it up, and you&#8217;re using it to make a claim. I can&#8217;t prove a negative. Did you call Weddle, since you cited him? Did you know the source of the data was Weddle to begin with? My challenge stands. You cited a report that you emphasized was credible. (The career industry is a bit too fond of basing product claims on &#8220;they say that&#8230;&#8221;) Show me the data and the methodology to back up your staggering claim that &#8220;almost 70%&#8221; of people find their jobs through job boards. I&#8217;ve cited my sources, which disclose their data and their methodologies. All I&#8217;m asking you to do is the same.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Rothberg CollegeRecruiter.com</title>
		<link>http://whatwoulddadsay.com/2009/12/toby-dayton-heres-a-good-case-for-rethinking-your-thinking/#comment-119285</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Rothberg CollegeRecruiter.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 02:49:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.jobdig.com/wwds/?p=4267#comment-119285</guid>
		<description>Nick -- So you&#039;re criticizing me because you were unable to find a copy of the methodology for Peter Weddle&#039;s study on his web site and you&#039;re assuming because you were unable to find that copy that the methodology must therefore be suspect? Get real. Did you call Peter? Did you even email him? A visit to someone&#039;s web site does not constitute adequate research, so before you call the kettle black...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick &#8212; So you&#8217;re criticizing me because you were unable to find a copy of the methodology for Peter Weddle&#8217;s study on his web site and you&#8217;re assuming because you were unable to find that copy that the methodology must therefore be suspect? Get real. Did you call Peter? Did you even email him? A visit to someone&#8217;s web site does not constitute adequate research, so before you call the kettle black&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Corcodilos</title>
		<link>http://whatwoulddadsay.com/2009/12/toby-dayton-heres-a-good-case-for-rethinking-your-thinking/#comment-119284</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Corcodilos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 02:20:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.jobdig.com/wwds/?p=4267#comment-119284</guid>
		<description>@Steve Rothberg: Come on, Steve. Let&#039;s talk about those statistics. They come from Pete Weddle. The first time I encountered the &quot;very good, reliable source&quot; you cited, I traced it back for details on Weddle&#039;s research methodology. I&#039;ll post you a challenge: You go find the methodology he used and post the details here. And we&#039;ll discuss how he gathered the data and the integrity of his conclusions.

Here&#039;s the problem: Weddle does not publish the data you cite on his own website. It appears on the &quot;International Association of Employment Web Sites&quot; website, which references Weddle&#039;s site, which provides no information. I call B.S. on it. You prove I&#039;m wrong. I&#039;m willing and glad to look at and discuss the methodology Weddle used.

Good luck. You&#039;re gonna need it. Does it occur to you that Weddle&#039;s conclusions are a bit self-serving since he caters to the job board industry? The bigger problem is that they are also suspect. Please: Before you cite a &quot;very good, reliable source,&quot; be ready to disclose the source AND its methodology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Steve Rothberg: Come on, Steve. Let&#8217;s talk about those statistics. They come from Pete Weddle. The first time I encountered the &#8220;very good, reliable source&#8221; you cited, I traced it back for details on Weddle&#8217;s research methodology. I&#8217;ll post you a challenge: You go find the methodology he used and post the details here. And we&#8217;ll discuss how he gathered the data and the integrity of his conclusions.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the problem: Weddle does not publish the data you cite on his own website. It appears on the &#8220;International Association of Employment Web Sites&#8221; website, which references Weddle&#8217;s site, which provides no information. I call B.S. on it. You prove I&#8217;m wrong. I&#8217;m willing and glad to look at and discuss the methodology Weddle used.</p>
<p>Good luck. You&#8217;re gonna need it. Does it occur to you that Weddle&#8217;s conclusions are a bit self-serving since he caters to the job board industry? The bigger problem is that they are also suspect. Please: Before you cite a &#8220;very good, reliable source,&#8221; be ready to disclose the source AND its methodology.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Corcodilos</title>
		<link>http://whatwoulddadsay.com/2009/12/toby-dayton-heres-a-good-case-for-rethinking-your-thinking/#comment-119283</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Corcodilos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 02:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.jobdig.com/wwds/?p=4267#comment-119283</guid>
		<description>@Matt Charney: Bunk. You say -- &quot;The 1997 job board model you point out is indeed outdated; that’s why we’ve developed cutting edge semantic search capabilities to allow employers to intuitively match top candidates with specific criteria, paring both cost per hire and time to fill.&quot;

That&#039;s pure crap. On October 5, on Minnesota Public Radio, Monster&#039;s Doug Hardy used the same line: “You are talking about the kind of data base management that was happending in job boards before… If you look at Monster now, it has much more associative types of search in it, especially the new beta search… we’re trying to go beyond exact word matching.”

The audio is here: http://corcodilos.com/blog/1005/the-monster-ous-quality-of-choice

You guys must be attending the same staff meetings. But here&#039;s the problem, Matt. Let&#039;s forget about your mountain of resumes. It&#039;s nothing to brag about. Dung tends to accumulate where its dropped if no one cleans it up -- and your database is not worth defending. Let&#039;s talk about performance. Since 2001, Monster’s success rate — the percentage of hires that companies make using Monster’s data base — has not changed appreciably from about 3%. In fact, between 2008 and 2009, Monster’s success rate has dropped. (Source: CareerXroads Source of Hires Study, 2008.) The other big job boards have fared no better.

In 2008 HR departments bought $1.3 billion worth of resume swill from Monster and got a less than 3% success rate. That allows you to claim huge revenues, but that pile of revenue does not prove your product works. It just proves that HR on the whole is inept or corrupt. Those HR departments need to be called to task for wasting their investors’ money. One extremely frustrated HR vice president at a Fortune 50 company complains to me that, “The big job boards aggressively wine and dine our top executives, who sign up for yet another year. Virtually our entire recruiting budget goes into the job boards, with the result that I can’t get any money to spend on going out to actually recruit good people.”

Matt, your success rate has dropped, not gotten better. What does it matter how many resumes you own? I believe it was George Carlin who explained extreme volume: &quot;Imagine you could have everything in the world! Where would you PUT it??!&quot; Monster has all the resumes in the world. So what? That&#039;s not a metric. How much HR spends on your service is not a metric. Success rate -- that&#039;s a metric.

Your &quot;semantic search capabilities&quot; make great PR, but a look at legitimate research in human cognition tells us that it&#039;s bunk. Matt -- printed NEWSPAPER ADS deliver a higher percentage of hires (8%) than Monster does. They have no semantic search capabilities.

See you next year, when we can take another look at your success rates. In the meantime, I think you&#039;re better off feeding this baloney to the HR executives you wine and dine. It goes better with gall than public debate that serves facts and data.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Matt Charney: Bunk. You say &#8212; &#8220;The 1997 job board model you point out is indeed outdated; that’s why we’ve developed cutting edge semantic search capabilities to allow employers to intuitively match top candidates with specific criteria, paring both cost per hire and time to fill.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s pure crap. On October 5, on Minnesota Public Radio, Monster&#8217;s Doug Hardy used the same line: “You are talking about the kind of data base management that was happending in job boards before… If you look at Monster now, it has much more associative types of search in it, especially the new beta search… we’re trying to go beyond exact word matching.”</p>
<p>The audio is here: <a href="http://corcodilos.com/blog/1005/the-monster-ous-quality-of-choice" rel="nofollow">http://corcodilos.com/blog/1005/the-monster-ous-quality-of-choice</a></p>
<p>You guys must be attending the same staff meetings. But here&#8217;s the problem, Matt. Let&#8217;s forget about your mountain of resumes. It&#8217;s nothing to brag about. Dung tends to accumulate where its dropped if no one cleans it up &#8212; and your database is not worth defending. Let&#8217;s talk about performance. Since 2001, Monster’s success rate — the percentage of hires that companies make using Monster’s data base — has not changed appreciably from about 3%. In fact, between 2008 and 2009, Monster’s success rate has dropped. (Source: CareerXroads Source of Hires Study, 2008.) The other big job boards have fared no better.</p>
<p>In 2008 HR departments bought $1.3 billion worth of resume swill from Monster and got a less than 3% success rate. That allows you to claim huge revenues, but that pile of revenue does not prove your product works. It just proves that HR on the whole is inept or corrupt. Those HR departments need to be called to task for wasting their investors’ money. One extremely frustrated HR vice president at a Fortune 50 company complains to me that, “The big job boards aggressively wine and dine our top executives, who sign up for yet another year. Virtually our entire recruiting budget goes into the job boards, with the result that I can’t get any money to spend on going out to actually recruit good people.”</p>
<p>Matt, your success rate has dropped, not gotten better. What does it matter how many resumes you own? I believe it was George Carlin who explained extreme volume: &#8220;Imagine you could have everything in the world! Where would you PUT it??!&#8221; Monster has all the resumes in the world. So what? That&#8217;s not a metric. How much HR spends on your service is not a metric. Success rate &#8212; that&#8217;s a metric.</p>
<p>Your &#8220;semantic search capabilities&#8221; make great PR, but a look at legitimate research in human cognition tells us that it&#8217;s bunk. Matt &#8212; printed NEWSPAPER ADS deliver a higher percentage of hires (8%) than Monster does. They have no semantic search capabilities.</p>
<p>See you next year, when we can take another look at your success rates. In the meantime, I think you&#8217;re better off feeding this baloney to the HR executives you wine and dine. It goes better with gall than public debate that serves facts and data.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Charney</title>
		<link>http://whatwoulddadsay.com/2009/12/toby-dayton-heres-a-good-case-for-rethinking-your-thinking/#comment-119282</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Charney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:53:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.jobdig.com/wwds/?p=4267#comment-119282</guid>
		<description>Hi Toby:

Thank you for weighing in with your comments on “mega job boards.”  As a competitor to job boards, it’s no surprise that you find traditional job boards to be wanting.  Our clients, both job seekers and employers, overwhelmingly disagree with this assessment.  While we normally wouldn’t respond to such self serving and vitriolic commentary, we here at Monster wanted to make sure we participated in the dialogue it generated.

Monster absolutely agrees that Social Media is an “essential, mandatory component” of recruiting efforts.  That’s why we’ve recently launched Monster Communities, over 20 niche networks where professionals from accountants to firefighters can build profiles, interact and engage with other professionals and hiring makers while staying on top of pertinent trends and best practices specific to the careers they’re passionate about.  

We also agree that there’s a job board revolution underway necessitating “fresh thinking regarding talent acquisition strategies.”  The 1997 job board model you point out is indeed outdated; that’s why we’ve developed cutting edge semantic search capabilities to allow employers to intuitively match top candidates with specific criteria, paring both cost per hire and time to fill.  

It’s funny, to us and our employer customers, our millions of resumes is an asset; why limit a search to those easiest to find when you can use the most powerful technology to find the best person from the largest relevant pool?  Our new search technology is also available at a range of prices; we get that small business and limited hiring situations need the same search precision as big enterprises filling dozens of positions, and our products, including our job posting packages, reflect these diverse needs. 

So we understand that recruiters are demanding more for their money than clinging to a “post and pray” mentality.  That’s why this year we brought our clients the “Keep America Working Tour,” free of charge to all Monster customers, making nearly 100 stops nationwide in 2009.  That’s why we provide a slew of free webinars, white papers and thought leadership articles to the recruitment community through our Employer Resource Center.  And that’s why we want to make sure we’re listening to ensure every hiring professional (and candidate) walks away with a positive experience.

Finally, we absolutely agree with the need for increased transparency in advertising jobs.  As the CEO of LinkUp, which your article mentions as “better, cheaper, more efficient, more effective,” but as the only tangible alternative to the “mega job boards” suggested in this best practices piece, we wish you’d extended your desire for transparency to this posting, too.

We think you should see for yourself what we’re up to at Monster, because it really sounds like we’re on the same page when it comes to the evolution of job boards.

Matt Charney
Monster Social Media Engagement Manager
matt.charney@monster.com &#124; @monster_works</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Toby:</p>
<p>Thank you for weighing in with your comments on “mega job boards.”  As a competitor to job boards, it’s no surprise that you find traditional job boards to be wanting.  Our clients, both job seekers and employers, overwhelmingly disagree with this assessment.  While we normally wouldn’t respond to such self serving and vitriolic commentary, we here at Monster wanted to make sure we participated in the dialogue it generated.</p>
<p>Monster absolutely agrees that Social Media is an “essential, mandatory component” of recruiting efforts.  That’s why we’ve recently launched Monster Communities, over 20 niche networks where professionals from accountants to firefighters can build profiles, interact and engage with other professionals and hiring makers while staying on top of pertinent trends and best practices specific to the careers they’re passionate about.  </p>
<p>We also agree that there’s a job board revolution underway necessitating “fresh thinking regarding talent acquisition strategies.”  The 1997 job board model you point out is indeed outdated; that’s why we’ve developed cutting edge semantic search capabilities to allow employers to intuitively match top candidates with specific criteria, paring both cost per hire and time to fill.  </p>
<p>It’s funny, to us and our employer customers, our millions of resumes is an asset; why limit a search to those easiest to find when you can use the most powerful technology to find the best person from the largest relevant pool?  Our new search technology is also available at a range of prices; we get that small business and limited hiring situations need the same search precision as big enterprises filling dozens of positions, and our products, including our job posting packages, reflect these diverse needs. </p>
<p>So we understand that recruiters are demanding more for their money than clinging to a “post and pray” mentality.  That’s why this year we brought our clients the “Keep America Working Tour,” free of charge to all Monster customers, making nearly 100 stops nationwide in 2009.  That’s why we provide a slew of free webinars, white papers and thought leadership articles to the recruitment community through our Employer Resource Center.  And that’s why we want to make sure we’re listening to ensure every hiring professional (and candidate) walks away with a positive experience.</p>
<p>Finally, we absolutely agree with the need for increased transparency in advertising jobs.  As the CEO of LinkUp, which your article mentions as “better, cheaper, more efficient, more effective,” but as the only tangible alternative to the “mega job boards” suggested in this best practices piece, we wish you’d extended your desire for transparency to this posting, too.</p>
<p>We think you should see for yourself what we’re up to at Monster, because it really sounds like we’re on the same page when it comes to the evolution of job boards.</p>
<p>Matt Charney<br />
Monster Social Media Engagement Manager<br />
<a href="mailto:matt.charney@monster.com">matt.charney@monster.com</a> | @monster_works</p>
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